MotoGP & MotoCzysz C1

Motoczysz C1Original Post - July, 1 at 8:56pm PDT…but there seems to be some recent technical interest and I would love hear others’ opinions.

Long ago I signed up to become a member of Club MotoAmerica the membership / mailing list for the MotoCzysz Project. For those of you that don’t know who Motoczysz is, you have to check them out. Simply put, its a guy (a roadracer) with a dream, the brainpower + the cash to try to make it happen. A US designed & built MotoGP entry and/or a ground-up new design of a sportbike.

Note - for what its worth, you technical folks might just want to take a look at their career opporunities. If I wasn’t really happy with what I was doing…

Anyway, for those of us that are going to be at Laguna Seca, we will have a chance to check them out. The below info is from an email I received tonight:

MotoCzysz Club MotoAmerica

July 1st, 2005

Spring has spring, the grass is green, pick your summer cliché… any way you look at it, it’s sure fun to be outside on two wheels right about now. Here at the office, all we can talk about is Laguna Seca. This will be the biggest motorcycle road race weekend in America in the past 20 years, and we are way beyond proud to be a part of it. If you are going down, please stop in and say hello to us. Our schedule for the weekend is as follows:

Friday July 8th
8:00am-5:00pm Michelin Tent (in the Laguna Seca paddock)
6:00pm-8:00pm RedBull Energy Center/ Rider’s BBQ

Saturday July 9th
8:00am-12:30pm Michelin Tent
1:00pm-5:00pm ELF tent
6:00pm-8:00pm Rob Report Magazine Salon

Sunday July 10th
8:00am-11:30pm Michelin Tent
12:00pm Possible parade laps before the MotoGP race (if approved by all the bureaucrats, and the planets align)
2:00pm-4:30pm Red Bull Energy Center

For Members Only:
If you want to go to Laguna, but can’t get tickets, we have 6 general admission tickets that we’d like to give out to our members. Just send me an email, and I’ll get tickets to the first 6 who write me. Please include your phone, email, address, and we’ll hook you up.

C1 Update
MotoCzysz took delivery of new custom-made carbon fiber wheels by BlackStone Tek of South Africa. The wheels were designed and manufactured exclusively for use on the C1. They utilize BST’s monococque hollow spoke design which makes them both lighter and stiffer than wheels made of aluminum or magnesium. We also have received advanced production ceramic brake rotors from Brake Tech that we can use at full race pace. On electrical side of things, a new wiring harness was provided by BPD’s Amar Bazzaz. Amar is well known in the international racing community, and was the former crew chief of Matt Mladin Suzuki team. The new harness allows us more sensors to collect even more data.

Company News
Since Infineon, the mechanics have rebuilt the engine twice, and taken the bike to Portland International Raceway to work out some kinks in various systems. The folks at PIR, PSSR, and Cascade Track Time have been a huge help in getting us time to test, as well as showing great support every time we are out at the track. A special thanks goes out to Matt Sanders and Brad Allen, the partners who brought you the LINES series of road riding DVD’s. Matt and Brad have been essential in helping us get some on-track footage of the C1 while in testing.

See you at Laguna!

-Tom Frisch
MotoCzysz
Project Documentarian

I am definitely going to check them out! Now the question is can anyone provide the phonetic of MOTOCZYSZ? Moh-toh-ch-ice???

12 Comments

It’s moh-toh-siss.

Comment by Some Guy | July 2nd, 2005 6:28 am | Permalink

Just how many mechanics does Motoczysz have, and what kind of experience is needed to be a mechanic for them?

Comment by Tine | July 8th, 2005 6:39 pm | Permalink

I stopped by to see them in the Michelin tent and also saw the bike in action on the parade laps. Very impressive.

Tine - my only suggestion is to read the info provided (racer for at least one year at a national level, etc.) and inquire within.

I also found out that its Moh-toh-sizz as in “sizzle”

Comment by angrybob | July 13th, 2005 9:01 pm | Permalink

Because a bike is leaned side to side to turn, if the crank sits longitudinally in the chassis gyroscopic force is a non issue. This is because you are not changing the direction of the crank axis when changing lean angle. Inertial force of the crank comes into play but only when the crank is changing speed. I’m not sure if Czysz understands the difference. If he did I do not think he would have even bothered drawing the counter rev. motor.
Here is the point that I know Czyzs does not get. Even a transversely mounted motor is of little effect on motorcycle handling because the gyroscopic precession is contained within the chassis. Imagine a motorcycle engine in a stand that allows it to rotate freely from side to side(at a right angle to crank rotation). If that motor is at 0 or 15,000 rpm it will rotate side to side with the same effort because the test stand resists the torque from precession. A motorcycle is a rolling engine stand that rotates freely from side to side. The gyroscopic precession from the crank is a non-factor in motorcycle turning effort regardless of engine layout. Precession from the crank is contained within the chassis. When a motorcycle with a transverse crank that spins forward is changing lean angle to the right the torque generated from precession tries to spin the entire motorcycle around to the right and vice-versa when leaning left. This is a considerable force when a crank is spinning upwards of 15,000rpm. The problem for Czysz is that the rider never feels it because the force is contained within the chassis. The irony is that in the layout just described the precession from the engine pushes the triple clamp in the direction that the bike is being leaned which would assist counter steering therefore if anything reducing steering effort. The effect is so small that it really does not matter. The net gain from Czysz’s counter-revolution engine is ZERO. Here is a simple experiment to demonstrate that crank precession plays no role in steering effort. Sit on a stationary motorcycle and rock it side to side. It does not matter if engine rpm is 0 or 15,000 the effort to lean the stationary bike side to side is unchanged. I did it on my zx10 from idle to 9,000rpm. I can think of no reason why this experiment would not be valid. If you were to pin the throttle of a stationary bike and let it fall, it would fall to the ground at the same rate regardless of crank orientation. Precession from the crank does not resist lean. If I have said anything that you disagree with or if I have inadequately explained it I would be glad to elaborate
Robby Kasten

Comment by Robby Kasten | September 16th, 2005 4:29 pm | Permalink

In the RRW article, Chris Ulrich stated “The biggest thing about the MotoCzysz is that it transitions like no other 1000c motorcycle I have ever ridden”. What is your theory behind that? Chassis design?

Your response makes sense, but its not my field of expertise. I tend to agree that as long as the engine is centered - either direction - things will balance. But in terms of center of gravity and lean angle (especially at speed), having it closer to the center line may be that actual benefit. To me, the counter-rev engine would be in line with the c.o.g.

I would have to think (hope)that a helluva lot of consulting and feedback as well as Czysz’s own assometer would have been tapped before going public.

Comment by angrybob | September 18th, 2005 9:13 pm | Permalink

Two reasons why the bike transitioned easily. Light front wheel and brake, secondly, they were only riding at about 80%. I’m sure that it is a well engineered bike. As long as the engine is mounted in the chasis it is isolated from the rider. The torque of precession from the crank is transfered to the rear tire contact patch and to the triple clamp. The chassis acts as a 4ft. lever against the crank. since offset at the triple clamp is only about an inch the clip-ons act as a lever also. So, If the crank generates a max of 100 ft lbs of precession torque it is reduced to 25 by the chassis and then down to about 2ft lbs. by the clip-ons. sorry if this is sloppy but I’m tired.
robby

Comment by Robby Kasten | September 18th, 2005 10:00 pm | Permalink

Robby - what’s your background?

Comment by angrybob | September 19th, 2005 10:57 pm | Permalink

My last name ends in “czyk” and all my Polish relatives tell me it is pronounced “check”. Czechoslovakia is pronounced “check-o-slow-va-key-a”. So, it would follow that Czysz is pronounced “chizz” and not “sizz”. Of, course when many eastern Europeans immigrated to the USA their names were altered or butchered by the officials at Ellis Island, or the immigrants themselves, in an attempt to “Americanize” them. I’ll defer to Mr. C for the pronunciation of his last name but keep in mind you are witnessing the change in language.

As to the C1 prototype motorcycle, I’ll make the following observations:

1) I saw the bike in-person at Laguna both on Cannery Row the night it was unloaded and parked in the “bling bike” area, as well as during its demo laps on the track the next day. In typical marketing fashion, Michael Czysz shows up in full leathers and NO helmet on the bike. Yeah, Mr. C, you’re cool, but where’s the beef? The laps on the track were loud and that’s about it. I bet Randy Mamola could have easily passed the C1 during his passenger demo rides on the Desmodeici.
2) The bike is a collection of interesting ideas that have yet to be proven in any meaningful way. It’s all just a bunch of talk and conjecture at this point.
3) There is no way the C1 will race in, much less be competitive in MotoGP without many years of development and changes in design (ask Kenny Roberts Sr.) if at all. You misguided patriotic zealots need to pull your heads out of the sand and realize this is a “concept” bike not a legitimate threat to any existing manufacturer or race series.
4) To compare this man with John Britten is ridiculous!!! The C1 has not won any legitimate kind of race anywhere. The Britten, on the other hand, won many significant races and championships in several different race series. Check the Britton website (http://www.britten.co.nz/) for more details. Besides, I don’t believe anyone outside of New Zealand ever heard of the Britten until it came across the pond and started kicking some ass. Mr. C on the other hand has received tons of press for a bike that would probably get spanked by a stock 600cc sportbike. I personally have a lot more respect for Dr. Rob Tuluie (http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/issues/apr00/tularis.htm) than Michael Czysz, The Tularis was built using unique technology and raced regularly to prove the concept. Ultimately, the Tularis failed to achieve its envisioned potential, but at least it was a trial by fire, not press. The C1’s only trial has been in the forum of opinion.

Thanks Mr. C for taking your ideas, putting them in metal and displaying them to the moto-public, but don’t think that’s a guarantee validation or of success. You might want to spend more time engineering and less time marketing.

Comment by rhino | September 20th, 2005 11:42 am | Permalink

Robby - what’s your background?

As only the crickets can be heard…

The reason I ask is that I am curious of the axe to grind here?

Comment by angrybob | September 20th, 2005 11:18 pm | Permalink

Though I must say also that this is far from my field of expertise, I would think that the gyroscopic effect generated by the wheels would far outweigh any effect from the crank due to their combined weight and their circumference in relationship to the size and weight of the crank. Even though the crank is spinning at a far greater speed.

Comment by PrairieRider | September 21st, 2005 10:44 am | Permalink

My dad was an engineer for Ford for some 35+ years. I would describe him as a cool geek…an engineer’s engineer. He had pocket protectors, but was/is pretty damn funny. As kids we often got ‘Toys of Physics’. In fact I remember him teaching us the answer to the question “whats in a light bulb?” We would reply “Tungsten wire in argon gas”. Soming from three year olds, that must’ve sounded pretty funny.

Anyway, I remember getting a toy handheld gyroscope. You wound kite string around the main shaft and pulled it out, generating the spin.

Wow…here is the exact one 25+ years later!

The result of this actual gyroscope was very easy to understand. If you wanted to rotate the frame in the same plane as the spinning wheel (forward or backward) there was no reactive force. It was like spinning just the frame. If you wanted to rotate the frame in any out-of-plane direction, there was a reactive force that exceeded until its max effect at 90 from the plane of the spinning wheel.

I think this is where Czysz is going. Does my anecdotal data qualify me to speak intelligently about the subject as a matter of fact…no. Is it the result of a gyroscope? Yes. Does the crank act like a gyroscope? Yes.

Comment by angrybob | September 21st, 2005 12:51 pm | Permalink

Another difference is that the 636 makes the 600 feel slow but, that said, the 600 steers from side-to-side with less effort than the 636. Subsequent interviews with engineers confirmed that the 636 crankshaft is slightly heavier than the 600 crank. I presume that the heavier crank is creating more of a gyroscopic effect which resists steering efforts. This statement in no way should be construed to mean that the 636 steers slowly, just with ever so slightly more effort than the 600.

Comment by anonymous | February 4th, 2006 10:49 pm | Permalink

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