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Angrybob, first of all how can you compare Harley Davidson to Ford or GM? Both of those companies have had in the area of 250,000 employees. Where as Harley has 10,000 worldwide!! Harley will never be a GM or Ford. They are also in the midst of losing 12.5 Billion dollars this year. Unions with them did take concessions and where did it get them. They’re still out of a job. I’m proud to see Local 175 stick up for themselves to a company that has a net income of 1.04 billion after the all expense paid health care and wage packages. OH I’M SORRY THE CEO, CFO, ETC. STILL GOT THEIR 25 MILLION + WAGE OUT OF THAT AS WELL.

Secondly, why don’t we get the real picture from the market place. I believe that Harley is in a bad place with bikes all over the place that dealers are having a hard time selling. So they don’t deal with the unions and allow them to stike so they can have a fall guy. When their profits aren’t at the expected levels for the first quarter of 2007, they will blame the York strike for the diaster when they should be blaming their executives that only saw $$$$$$ signs for their own pocket books.

Rhino, Harley is only giving us a 2% raise the contract states 4 the first year but they want 2.7 back in healthcare which nets a 1.7 next year again they will give us 4% but they want 3.9 back which nets us .1 meanwhile the corp. exec. get millions and not just a couple

Interesting stuff above with some of the details have been filled in. I’m not one to sugarcoat things, so I’ll let it be known that I’m no fan of the union in today’s workforce.

My background is in automotive engineering which is why I can, with a great deal of knowledge, draw comparisons out to GM & Ford. The size of the company does not matter when it comes to paying legacy premiums to people who are no longer producing for a company. It is this legacy cost as well as labor costs that are killing the Big 3.

While we all want to make as much as possible, one also has to consider the specialty of the work. I have been on many automotive assembly lines and other areas of repetitive work. Yes it takes training and its skilled labor to degree, but the system of merit has been totally removed from the pay equation. Rather than performance, its seniority upon which priveledge is based. A good performing worker is given the same raise per the contract as a poor performing worker. It’s simply a socialist system and I think it sucks.

Second, the days of ‘free’ health care are over. Get used to it. My company just went from free health care for me and my family to a premium of $60 per pay period (in my case). Does it suck? Sure. Did I consider any ‘action’ against the company and/or management? Not at all. When you love your job, the little stuff simply doesn’t matter. If it becomes big enough, its time to quit and work somewhere else.

I ask a simple question: If management treats you soooo bad, why would you want to work for tha company? My guess at the answer: because you probably can’t make the same kind of ca$h anywhere else in York. Ask yourself a question - are you working at HD for the cash or for the company/brand/legacy? If its the former, then strike away and go for the cash regardless of the long term solvency. If the answer is the latter, you may want to consider that your job being there in ten years is better than a couple bucks now. Healthcare costs are going up every year. Yet if they are free to you, the company is paying more out every year with non-equivalent incoming profits.

I understand that HD has had an excellent run the past couple of years, by think back to the late 70’s. What if that happens again? What are you going to do when the baby-boomers expire (HD’s main demographic)? Where does al the development money come from? That’s right, whether you are testing in Naples FL or in Mesa AZ or designing in Milwaukee, the design and development of new bikes costs money.  How was the VR1000 Superbike project funded?

BTW - is HD making more money on bikes or accessories (t-shirts, exhaust systems, leather jackets, etc.)…I know the answer. Accessories revenues (not made in York) have been growing at a rate about twice as fast as motorcycle revenues. Apparel revenues have grown three times as fast as motorcycle revenues. Should those divisions get more of the pie than those in York?

Third is this whole notion of being American made. Who supplies the front forks and rear shocks for HD and Buell - that would be a Japanese company called Showa. Who supplies the carbs - that would be Keihin another Japanese company. God knows there are Denso electronic parts too. Get my drift? Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are building mfg plants right here in the good ole USA and the Big three are putting them in Mexico - hmmmm. Chrysler / Dodge is a German company in the end. There money, just like the Japanese auto makers goes out of the country ultimately.

New employees will make less? BFD. The everyone is equal approach works well in France and Germany (if you consider about 12% unemployment working well). Life in the US is about inequity. If a new employee simply cannot handle the differences in the new vs. old employee pay/benefits/retirement, then he or she can continue job hunting.

Look, the health care costs are growing and any add’l cash out of your (our) pockets sucks. I feel your pain as I have just started kicking in about $130 every month for mine since January. I refuse to let that amount of money get in the way of a career and my career path. I am taking a long term approach that will keep the company profitable which will keep me employed. Why? Its very simple - we are a team, my company and me. We work much better as team members versus adversaries. There is give and take with every day.

If the expenses get too much to incur, its time to leave. It’s that simple. I do not ant to work for company or organization that I feel the necessity to strike or the ‘US vs. Them’ wisdom. It’s not good for anyone.

ps - what was the 401k matching increase proposed?

EDIT - I made a typo and put $60 per month vs. $60 per pay period.

While I recognize the incredibly valuable contributions of unions, especially in the past when industrialized business was first forming, I’m not about to agree that unions are always “right” or “reasonable”. Unions have physically and mentally abused people who crossed picket lines, extorted and embezzeled money from workers and run viable and fair businesses into the ground. The vision of the union as protector and savior is at best, flawed and short-sighted.

We have a bad expectation in this country …. that we deserve a raise every year. This is not realistic or beneficial. Can you say inflation! Not to mention difficulty competing in a world economy. Pay needs to be merit based, not a result of years of service or loyalty to a union. If a worker is just going through the motions and not actively seeking to better himself or make the company more profitable, he/she deserves no increase!

As a matter of fact, I drive a Chevy van (not a “foreign car”), not because I’m patriotic, but because it’s a practical, well priced form of transportation that the foreign companies don’t offer. Besides, there is no longer such a thing as products “made in the USA”! Get your head out of the sand a realize we get our various raw materials as well as the vast majority of our vehicle sub-assemblies from all over the world. If we think we can sit safely on top of a global economy in isolation, you’re ignorant.

My solution to executives making huge profits is simple, the higher up you are in the company, the more your salary should be based on profits alone. The company president should only make money if the company does (100% profit based salary) and “golden parachutes” should be eliminated entirely.

I’m not saying there’s no place for unions, I hope they continue to champion worker’s right well into the future. But to assume they are to be followed blindly without questioning their motives is to encourage abuse. Dissention and diversity of opinion should always considered in any disagreement. Gather your own information and form your own opinion, don’t blindly follow someone you says they are looking out for your best interests …… because often they are looking out only for themselves.

Rhino

Did you just say “sink is shipping”?

I think that the Harley employees have such a gravy train going that they are reluctant to let it go!
I was considering buying an electaglide, but now am having second thoughts. The bikes are dated.
It seems to me that Harley has stood by it’s employees that stayed with them through the bad times.
As far as whether a new employee makes as much as I do, I think that senority should have it’s privleges. Is this not an ideal that unions have fought for in the past?
Both my wife and I work for a large hospital organization. We both pay a portion of our health insuance and pay coopay’s. And only get .50 on the dollar for our 401c’s.
Wake up Union or you will do what AMF almost did and kill the the goose that laid the golden egg!
It seems to me that the union members are spoiled brats and need to realize that there is no support for their strike outside of their own narrow community;

im sorry to tell everyone who says we are greedy but american corps are taking and taking but we accept this why some people say this is good get a life we are trying to stand up for everyone that has a dream. dont tell me that we are wrong because u r afraid to stand up

To “Not afraid to stand up”

Good for you. I hope you’re not afraid to help the rest of the people you’re affecting to “stand up” as well. Take a look around your shop, how many guys are getting over payed for what they’re doing? And how many getting under payed?

Just like Chrysler, paying people $20-30/hr to put rivets into a fender is going to cause problems. The unions are greedy, the motor company is greedy, and the workers are greedy. Only it’s the workers who are paying the price by following the unions blindly instead of working for a wage they deserve.

That’s a big problem with unions. The qualified guys will be suplementing the the unqualified and sacrificing thier own pay so the ‘rivet installers’ can get a decent wage. Not only that, it’s hard to get rid of any “dead weight” or “slackers” that cost the company money.